[mythtv-users] so how does Tivo do it?

Scott Blomfield ScottB at Cavps.com
Tue Aug 5 17:11:30 EDT 2003 

You can get better or lesser quality components of pretty much any
electrical component.

Where you see "three pieces" one of which is a PCB, someone else sees
hundreds of different transistors, capacitors, etc etc.

I have not seen you vouch that the quality of the capacitors is the same
as in the series one tivo. They may be of the same "quality" but with a
lesser lifetime. Or the whole thing might just plain be better quality.
Who knows.

I just wanted to point out that what you consider parts and what other
people consider parts can and probably are two different things.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Williams [mailto:JeffW at rockstargames.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 3:59 PM
To: Discussion about mythtv
Subject: RE: [mythtv-users] so how does Tivo do it?

Well I think my main point was that a lot of people take reducing size
and weight to mean a reduction in quality, when just as often the
opposite is the case.  Having one large hard drive vs. two smaller ones,
for example, actually *increases* reliability.  As does integrating
everything onto the motherboard.  Fewer parts means fewer parts to
potentially fail.

I haven't played around with a series 1 box but as far as physical
construction goes, I just didn't see anything in my series 2 that could
really be any better built than it is.  I mean what are you going to do,
make the motherboard thicker?  Use more screws?  The physical case could
be made differently, maybe, but it's built pretty much like every other
home theater component.

The quality of the TV encoder/decoder and DAC, you could be right for
all I know.  I do notice a slight degradation in my signal even at
highest quality.  But it's very slight, and in reading the
tivocommunity.com forums it seems like some people see it, some people
don't, and it doesn't really matter if you have a series 1 or 2.  More
people obviously have series 2 at this point so probably more people
notice the degradation with these machines.  But I can't say for sure.

Not that I'm really a TiVo defender.  I'm actually planning on replacing
mine; I had originally planned on replacing it with my Myth box but as
I'm having some remote control issues I'll probably just replace it with
the new Time Warner PVR's that are coming out and use my Myth box for
things other than watching live TV (archiving TV shows, watching DVD's,
playing MAME games, etc.).  And one of the reasons I'm replacing it is
the fact that it recompresses to MPEG-2 (the new Time Warner boxes
apparently don't recompress digital cable - they just write the digital
stream to the hard drive).  I think it's the MPEG-2 standard, and the
fact that it's recompressing what's already been compressed and
converted to analog once, that causes the image degradation, rather than
any quality issues with the encoder/decoder.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Max [mailto:max-mythtv-users at lasevich.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 4:40 PM
> To: Discussion about mythtv
> Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] so how does Tivo do it?
> 
> 
> First of all,don't take it personally, after all "lower" is 
> only a relative
> term.
> 
> And by components I meant stuff ON the motherboard. Things 
> like the mpeg
> encoder/decoder , DACs, etc. - as well as other stuff like 
> quality of the
> case (Series 1 cases were much sturdier than S2's),  and 
> quality of power
> supply (many S2 power supplies cannot handle 2 harddrives, 
> where S1's were
> actually DESIGNED to support 2 drives.) Also some components 
> present on S1
> motherboards were removed for S2 - though for my life I 
> cannot recall right
> now what they were.If you want more details, do some searches on Tivo
> Underground forum.
> 
> All in all, Series2 units seem to have more issues with video 
> and audio
> quality than series1 boxes, and tivo themselves said that part of the
> redesign goal was to reduce cost of the boxes.
> 
> It is still a nice box though and quiet sufficient for task.
> 
> -M
> 
> > I'm not sure the component quality is really lower.  What 
> is that based
> on?  I have a series 2 unit that I've modified with a new 
> hard drive... all
> that's in there is a power supply, motherboard with integrated CPU and
> hardware TV encoder, one fan and one Western Digital 40GB 
> hard drive (I had
> a 40 hour model).  I'm not even sure what there is that could 
> be considered
> higher or lower quality than what used to be in there - there 
> are exactly
> three parts to a TiVo that I was able to see, one of which is 
> solid state,
> another of which is from a reputable and respected hard drive 
> maker.  And I
> can't imagine they're making units with lower-quality power 
> supplies now;
> that'd be an odd place to save money (or rather, it would 
> have been odd if
> they were using particularly *good* power supplies in the 
> first gen models).
> So I don't know where the lower quality assertion comes from. 
>  The weight of
> the unit?  Size?  Looks?
> >
> > As for how they do it, the only thing in there that's worth 
> anything is
> the hardware TV encoder, which is probably equivalent to a 
> PVR-250.  A 40GB
> hard drive can be found for about $40 these days, the slow 
> CPU's they use
> are basically worthless, and a cheap, generic motherboard 
> only costs $15 so
> I can imagine they're not paying much for their custom PCB's.
> >
> > >From their lifetime subscription fees, they're counting on 
> at least $500
> per customer over the life of a unit.  I guarantee they're 
> making a nice
> profit at that price.  On the other hand, the company itself 
> is still losing
> money, but that's more due to company size and overhead vs. 
> installed base
> than anything.  If they had enough subscribers, they'd be 
> making money, and
> I'm sure they're making money on a per-unit basis.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Max [mailto:max-mythtv-users at lasevich.net]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 2:53 PM
> > > To: Discussion about mythtv
> > > Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] so how does Tivo do it?
> > >
> > >
> > > Tivo is
> > >     a: using custom designed, dedicated platform, not generic
> > > multipurpose
> > > hardware, so they only have needed hardware
> > >     b: because of a, they can use a 75Mhz PPC w/ 16MB of ram
> > > instead of
> > > 1Ghz+ P3 with 512MB of ram
> > >         (at least this is Series1 specs, Series 2 is
> > > different I think)
> > >     c: Series 1 units were sold BELOW their harware price,
> > > they tried to
> > > make up the difference in service fees
> > >     d: Series 2 units have better spec, but use much 
> lower quality of
> > > components as to bring the cost down.
> > >
> > > -M
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "John Wells" <jb at sourceillustrated.com>
> > > To: <mythtv-users at mythtv.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:45 AM
> > > Subject: [mythtv-users] so how does Tivo do it?
> > >
> > >
> > > > So, basically, if I want to create a MythTV box with all
> > > the features of
> > > > Tivo, I'm looking at a fairly hefty (at least $600+) price tag.
> > > >
> > > > How does Tivo offer their systems at such lower prices?
> > > I'm aware of
> > > > economies of scale, but what magic are they working?
> > > >
> > > > I suppose the monthly subscription fee covers some of their
> > > cost, but it
> > > > can't be a very lucrative profit there...
> > > >
> > > > Anyone have some insight?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> >
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